Talk:Starfleet ranks
Is there something needing to be fixed about the 2270s-2350s cadet insignia? The cadet admiral and cadet captain insignia don't seem to be necessary, and they're listed under "first class" and "second class", which seems inaccurate. -- Captain M.K.B. 04:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC) :Unfortunately, we've never gotten any word as to how they sorted out the classes of cadets, unlike the later systems. All we ever got was the fact that all cadets were shown wearing regular officer or enlisted insignia. I'm basically flying blind on the issue, but I had to do something. Seeing as though there are 12 officer ranks, I divvied them up into four groups of three and put each group as a class. It's the best I can do, but I'd like to hear if you've got a better suggestion, because the current system is cumbersome and unwieldy. --Kevin W. Adm•Tlk 05:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC) ::just got done rewatching Star Trek II, the only significant cadet movie appearances. ::*Saavik was never referred to as 'cadet', always referred to as 'lieutenant' or 'trainee' -- she wore the rankindicating she already "owned" the officer rank of lieutenant and was being trained. this is consistent with some organizations where you can attain an officer's rank, but still sre referred to as 'cadet' or 'trainee' if you are enrolled in an educational program. ::*Preston is referred to as 'midshipman first class' -- a midshipman being an officer candidate who is being given active duty as training. again, some organizations can refer to this person as 'trainee' or 'cadet'. this is confusing as peter wore a yellow engineer's stripe, with red trainee band, and the insignia of an enlisted crewman. a midshipman is definitely an officer position. ::i hope i don't sound ridiculous or overanalytical, but there're other points i can make here. in many militaries, 'cadet' and 'midshipman' are not "ranks", but "titles" -- meaning you can be a lieutenant, but once you are enrolled as a student, you are referred to as 'cadet', even though you are also a lieutenant (also, some lieutenants can be made lieutenants without ever receiving military training -- simply on the basis of their specialized experience - for example, an MD has enough education to rate an officer rank without ever having worn a uniform provided they meet certain proficency requirements). this would mean that any lieutenant who decided to enroll in a training academy would be a 'cadet' and a 'lieutenant' simultaneously. any officer cadet who serves aboard a ship would be a 'midshipman', despite the fact that they are also a 'cadet', and quite possibly an ensign or lieutenant. ::*one note on midshipman is that, in DS9, when they started calling Nog 'ensign', he actually wore the 'hollow pip' insignia that would fall below ensign in the chain of command, and was formerly used for chiefs. since Nog was an ungraduated cadet, was this their way of acknowleding the difference between full ensigns and midshipmen? ::*on Preston, and relating to Nog's wearing an enlisted insignia while being a student officer, it is possible that all cadets/midshipmen are given enlisted rates to make them 'official' crewmembers when they come onboard -- like Acting SCPO Collins in DS9: "Valiant". Basically, you are given a rate based on how proficient you are, but you don't receive an officer rank until you pass your education. this explains how Preston, Nog and Collins all wore enlisted insignia while all being referred to as officer cadets or subordinate to officers. ::**Preston wore a Crewman pin with Trainee colors on his Division stripe, on a uniform with a Trainee collar, and was referred to as Midshipman ::**Nog wore a Chief pin with a standard uniform and was referred to as Ensign ::**Collins wore a Cadet/Trainee uniform with an SCPO insignia and was referred to as "acting chief" ::My recommendations would be to remove all the "cadet admiral" solid red straps. I've always though a red-strap officer's uniform should be a "provisional" variation, since it was seen being worn by a "student" officer. ::Also, the midshipman strap takes on an odd twist -- Division color stripe/Red slash/Crewman pin equals "midshipman", presumably Red stripe/Division slash/Crewman pin would be "provisional/trainee crewman" -- Captain M.K.B. 08:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC) Image:2278 - AS (Operations Cadet).png|Officer trainee/cadet/midshipman (Preston's insignia). :::Well, I can at least address some of your concerns. The thing about Collins was she was appointed to that position because of the outstanding circumstances surrounding the crew of the Valiant. Her case doesn't have any impact because it's a special circumstance. Now, the other two, I'm not sure about. The thing about the division stripe/red slash thing, that's not what Preston wore. His wasn't division stripe with red. It was what I've got here. http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=37&pos=5 Also, the division stripe with red slash represents Academy staff. The rest of the stuff, I'm at a loss. I really am having a hard time making sense of any of this rank scheme. --Kevin W. Adm•Tlk 17:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC) you are right about that. i saw the red on the left and yellow on the right and didn't account for the fact that his "slash" is -off-center- of his arm on that uniform. so reverse the above, a yellow with red slash is an academy staff member, while red with yellow slash is a trainee/cadet. Midshipmen wear enlisted insignia, while those cadets who already have commissions wear their officer insignia. based on Peter being an officer cadet (midshipman) and wearing a CREW insignia, there might be some correlation between PO2 = sophomore, PO1 = junior, CPO or ENS = senior, but this is conjecture on my part. -- Captain M.K.B. 00:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC) :So, actual cadets wear enlisted insignia, whereas officers who are still at the Academy for additional specialty training wear officer insignia? That would explain Saavik being a cadet in TWOK and a full LT in TSFS. --Kevin W. Adm•Tlk 02:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC) ::Mike? --Kevin W. Adm•Tlk 19:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC) Layout suggestion Something that's bugged me about this article for a long time (and hence why I avoid it and Category:Rank images as much as possible)... The tables break out of the page on both sides at various places. Perhaps "gallerizing" (or reducing the number of) images might be in order, so it "flows" with the rest of the main body content. Might improve the appearance as well. 07:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC) :The tables look fine to me. -- 08:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC) Another suggestion I think that the star trek: remmington ranks should be separated into a fanon section on the table/chart as grouping it with the canon ranks implies that it is an official/canon production. no insult or offense intended to anyone just my opinion. --Logan MacLeod (talk) 16:05, May 19, 2014 (UTC) :Done. --Kevin W.•Talk to me 01:31, May 20, 2014 (UTC)